Curse

ForeverGoNe · Mar 23, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Some people use tainted flesh in their build. I don't see how exactly that works when you're running MM though.

Bel Ebih · Mar 23, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Fault

You're missing the point.

A 15>50 weapon will do more damage than a 14>50 weapon.
16 healing prayers will heal more than 15 healing prayers.
A N/Mo MM can do their job better than a N/E MM.

Its nice that you like N/E so much, but the FACT remains that it is not the best, and I'm sorry if you are unable to see that.

Wow. lol

Man, all I can do is simply laugh at that. Seems you clearly failed that part in school where they teach you the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'. Like I said before, there's no point in arguing with someone that is convinced his opinion is 'fact'. It is not. It's just your opinion, which of course you are entitled to and is respected, but it's just that, an OPINION... 'and I'm sorry if you are unable to see that.'

Carinae · Mar 23, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

Wow. lol

Man, all I can do is simply laugh at that. Seems you clearly failed that part in school where they teach you the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'. Like I said before, there's no point in arguing with someone that is convinced his opinion is 'fact'. It is not. It's just your opinion, which of course you are entitled to and is respected, but it's just that, an OPINION... 'and I'm sorry if you are unable to see that.'

I repeated your paragraph, because you need to read it.

I seriously don't think you understand the difference between fact and opinion. Facts are supported by evidence, reasoning, math, logic, etc. Opinions are not, and don't have to be.

So we have presented an argument the self-healing MMs are inherently stronger. We also provided evidence in terms of math, logic and reasoning. We continued (and still continue) to ask people to give their views on what MMs should be focusing on as their job. We ask people to provide examples and/or counter-examples.

As we progressed through this thread, we (the self-healing proponents) are seeing more and more via the numbers we presented that the self-healing option is actually a stronger build. Not saying that other MMs are bad players but that the build is inherently weaker. That's not a personal attack, but some people are extremely proud of their builds.

At this point, the numbers all point to self-healing being better. Also, all logical arguments point to self-healing being better, except for one well reasoned post explainin why N/E should have better energy management than other builds. No argument, her numbers look good, it's a plus for N/E's.

But that was really the only calm, reasonable reply from an N/E. Many of the other N/E proponents are short tempered, and take it personally that someone would dare say one build is better than any other, let alone their build. Can you see how this simply furthers the "N/E as noob" idea?

So, when does it go from 'opinion' to 'fact'?

Because you are literally coming in here and dismissing 6+ pages of numbers as BS and not presenting your own evidence/reasoning/logic. Then you plainly state that it is a FACT that this thread is our OPINION.

Um, can you see the logic failure there?

Numbers, reasoning and logic were used to provide evidence for our case. There were done in a good faith manner, but if you contest the math or consider it biased, feel free to propose a counter-agrument. I'm just asking a serious question here...

Do you think it's reasonable for anyone to just make a post stating that 6+ pages of evidence is 'Total BS', without offering anything as counter evidence, except vague personal anecdotes? (Not to be taken as an insult)

Without providing evidence, doesn't that make everything you say just an opinion also?

Even if our proposal isn't a fact, it's supported by 6+ pages of basically uncontested evidence, which puts it well on it's way to being a fact, doesn't it? If not, what makes something a fact?

TKDSamdan · Mar 23, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Since no one responded to this the first time, and I am sick of seeing this topic on the forum, here it is again. Some of you guys are being so combative with your posts, and I personally think it's pathetic. So, read up little doggies:

I think everyone presented some awesome points here, but it has reached that time where everything is getting repeated. I personally run a N/Mo build with my new MM because I think HA is MY best option for a self-heal for the moment (I do not like depending on monks to stay alive). Having a hard rez is nice, especially working with henchies, but isn't always necessary (Granted, I would rather be with a hard rez than a used rez sig when I need it). I will definitely try out different class combos to see what works best for me. I think that's the key element in this whole discussion. What works best for you? Some of us enjoy and use the Monk secondary well, while others despise the Monk secondary and use, say, a Mesmer or Ranger secondary for even better results (for them personally).

This has been stated before. Everyone is different, and everyone has different playing styles. I think that everyone NEEDS to play with other classes as their secondary and not be afraid to take chances. Sure, you can try builds that have been suggested here, but who is to say that is the best one for you? Don't flame other people because they have a different build than you and you disagree with that fact. Recognize that they have something to offer and try to learn from them. I get very tired of people saying things like, "your build sucks smart-ass," or, "you're making an ass of yourself," because it just isn't necessary.

And finally, in the end, it's just a game. Relax and go with it. Who cares really? Not me. We play for fun and a good challenge.

Peace

ump · Mar 23, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

a quick question so here goes
i know it is best to take 2 types of minion/horror/fiend but which is best i know that fiends do more dmg over time and horrors and minions have more armour but what are the advantages of each?
should i take horror and fiends - horrors and minions - fiends and minions?

but then with horrors and minions you get a nice meat sheild but then again with fiends they keep closer to you for easy healing access
any ideas
thanks in advance
A Leprachaun

Fiends attack every two seconds while horrors attack every three seconds. Plus fiends have ranged attacks. Therefore, they provide the most damage. In general, they are the most preferred minions. Horrors are the highest level at 18/19 compared to minions at 13. More levels means more health and likely more armor. That allows them to be better tanks because they live longer and take more damage. Minions are at a lower level, but you get two of them.

The reason you want two animate spells is because you don't want to leave a corpse on the ground, you want to animate everything. Even with the best recharge, you will be waiting often if you bring only one animate. If damage is your goal, bring fiends. If tanking/body blocking is your goal or if you simply want another cheap animate spell to add bring horrors. Minions replace fiends if either you want more body blocking (overwhelm with numbers) or if you intend to blow up your minions with Death Nova/Taste of Death.

A Leprechaun · Mar 23, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

thanks a lot

kaldak · Mar 23, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I'd like to recommend this post be locked. Any worthwhile information or debate has been lost under a myriad of closeminded and rather nasty comments.

In a game with this level of complexity, with varying environments, people, and teams, there's simply no way to state enough facts to claim that one build is "the best". Sure, you can crunch some numbers, but how well can that possibly actually represent the game?

You can point out an effective build, but really, why even attempt to take it any further than that? Especially in PVE does it even matter if its "the best" as long as its good enough to pull its weight?

So please, save your comments about superiority and lets all try to stick to recommendations that people can then evaluate on their own. After all, playing style can have a huge impact on the effectiveness of any build, and it really should be all about having fun anyway.

Bel Ebih · Mar 23, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Without providing evidence, doesn't that make everything you say just an opinion also?

Yeah. When did I ever say otherwise? All I've ever stated is my opinion, speaking for myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Even if our proposal isn't a fact, it's supported by 6+ pages of basically uncontested evidence, which puts it well on it's way to being a fact, doesn't it? If not, what makes something a fact?

A fact is something that is always unequivocally true under any circumstance, which is simply not the case here.

Still you want me to elaborate with numbers and reasoning for my opinion then? Fine...

Assuming a max life of 455hp (my Necro's at least), a N/E sacrifices around 200hp per minute (68hp every 21 secs) keeping VS up 100% of the time during downtime. This increses to around 342hp per minute during downtimes because of the added use of BotM when minion degen becomes more than the regen from VS, but does not extend to prolonged periods since little after minions reach this point, they are usually Nova'd and used to bomb, if not just let die for energy. This life-loss due to sacrifice is easily countered during downtime when natural life regen settles in before the next cast of VS, so self-healing there is not an issue.

Now, during mid-battle, the life-loss from VS remains the same or maybe less if one makes it a priority to summon fresh minions before dealing with VS. On the other hand, the sacrifice from BotM becomes more constant due to mid-battle healing of minions that are under attack. While healing from a Monk is necessary of course, an occasional Orison or Healing Breeze is enough to keep you going with no trouble, which in my opinion isn't much of a drain on a heal Monk. Besides, that's his job. Apart from this, in case you get targeted and risk dying, using ToD as an emergency button will bring you to full health at the cost of a minion, which brings me to my next point: energy management.

The loss of a minion to ToD in case of a high risk situation is offset by a N/E's energy management which allows for a more constant flow of summons, especially in situations of energy overflow when too many bodies drop at the same time. Glyph of Lesser Energy gives a net gain of 10 energy on summons, same as OoB at 9 Blood, except without the need to spread points or sacrifice 20% life (91hp in this case). Also, while Lesser Energy's recharge is double that of OoB, you'll be able to always use it, unlike OoB which is not wise to use that often anyway due to the sacrifice.

So, to summarize, in my opinion, N/E for MM is excellent due to superior energy management allowing for constant summoning even under the biggest pressure, and while the lack of solid self-heal requires the help of a Monk mid battle, you do have an emergency heal when at high risk, and are simply able to do you're job efficiently while the Monk does his (you provide and upkeep a large army for prolonged periods while he heals you if necessary).

Now, taking a look at N/Mo MM, the life sacrifice during downtime becomes greater if using VS/BotM (around 228hp per min, 114 every 30 secs), or less if just running VS (136hp per min, 68 every 30 secs). All the sacrifice is negated with the use Heal Area, which in turn is used to keep minion health up. So while hp is not an issue here either, energy is. The added spam of Heal Area to compensate for the time while VS is down adds up to roughly 60 energy per min during downtime. This is offset with natural energy regen, just as the N/E VS sac is offset by natural health regen. Yet this energy strain increses mid-battle when the use of HA becomes more constant in addition to the energy use of summoning. This is where OoB comes in.

At 9 Blood, which is how I use it, OoB gives a net gain of 10 energy. This energy can be used to summon, followed by a HA later to negate that sac (91hp loss), or can simply be used to just HA to heal minions. You could also OoB to be able to VS, in which case you need to follow later with two HA to negate the total sac (159hp loss). In any case, self-healing is, of course, never an issue, but it is a lot more energy intensive mid-battle making it tougher to summon constantly, even though in the downtime energy isn't much an issue either.

So, to summarize this, in my opinion, N/Mo is also excellent for a MM because of superior healing, since you will always be able to heal yourself, your minions, and even party members if necessary. Even if you strain for energy at times, having to pass on a summon or two, it's not much of an issue since you will constantly be healing everything, making the Monks job easier.

So to summarize all:

N/E is more energy efficient, allowing for faster summoning and less effort to keep minions alive, but needs Monk aid mid-battle if you need to sac more than usual, even though natural life regen is enough during downtime.
N/Mo is more life efficient, never needing heals from a Monk or an emergency button, but since the energy management adds to the life-loss, summoning is slower since it's combined with the constant use of the self-heal for yourself and minions.

And that is why I say that both are equally as efficient since, in my opinion, both N/Mo and N/E have their strengths, and weaknesses which can be overcome by simply playing either one smart. Still, like I've said before, all this becomes meaningless when, under practice, the numbers actually vary from player to player depending on their style and the circumstances of their location and group. And it is this variance that makes all that I've said, and all that you've said opinion, not fact.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaldak

I'd like to recommend this post be locked. Any worthwhile information or debate has been lost under a myriad of closeminded and rather nasty comments.

In a game with this level of complexity, with varying environments, people, and teams, there's simply no way to state enough facts to claim that one build is "the best". Sure, you can crunch some numbers, but how well can that possibly actually represent the game?

You can point out an effective build, but really, why even attempt to take it any further than that? Especially in PVE does it even matter if its "the best" as long as its good enough to pull its weight?

So please, save your comments about superiority and lets all try to stick to recommendations that people can then evaluate on their own. After all, playing style can have a huge impact on the effectiveness of any build, and it really should be all about having fun anyway.

Yup, exactly what I've been trying to say, though admittedly with some added 'nasty comments' due to being very annoyed.

Yah hit the nail right on the head there.

Carinae · Mar 24, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Bel Ebih: THANK YOU! Very deeply and sincerely, I Thank You! This is just exactly what I wanted, a reasonable, logical defense of N/E.

I would like to make some comments on your statements, because I do not fully agree with your diagnosis, but I am going to wait until tomorrow to digest this argument more fully.

As for the nasty comments, I'll now completely bury the hatchet with you, since sincere dialog has been established. Maybe I'm stubborn, but without a serious argument presented I was not going to concede anything. That's a position I would expect of anyone, anywhere.

Anyway, I will address this discussion tomorrow.

Sincerely thank you again for doing what no other N/E would do.
Carinae

Bel Ebih · Mar 24, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Bel Ebih: THANK YOU! Very deeply and sincerely, I Thank You! This is just exactly what I wanted, a reasonable, logical defense of N/E.

I would like to make some comments on your statements, because I do not fully agree with your diagnosis, but I am going to wait until tomorrow to digest this argument more fully.

As for the nasty comments, I'll now completely bury the hatchet with you, since sincere dialog has been established. Maybe I'm stubborn, but without a serious argument presented I was not going to concede anything. That's a position I would expect of anyone, anywhere.

Anyway, I will address this discussion tomorrow.

Sincerely thank you again for doing what no other N/E would do.
Carinae

Well, as long as we can agree to disagree with no 'comments on superiority' from either side, as kaldak put it, I'm all for a nice open discussion about anything really. I just get pretty annoyed sometimes when something I consider equal is dismissed as factualy inferior. On the other hand, if you say that is something no other N/E would do, I really understand then your point of view and annoyance with the build and those that play it since I also would've expected some sort of serious argument. Just didn't think mine would be the first. So yeah, the hatchet is buried, and I look forward to your comments whenever.

Manic Smile · Mar 24, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I posted a bunch of stuff but having read all the posts (mainly the previous two) and seeing that things seem to be moving in a good direction I just left it as is.

Can I suggest we think about what we want a MM to do in Various Areas and in various builds then compare builds with purposes.

TKDSamdan · Mar 24, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaldak

I'd like to recommend this post be locked. Any worthwhile information or debate has been lost under a myriad of closeminded and rather nasty comments.

Signed, Signed and Signed again.

bobrath · Mar 24, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

This life-loss due to sacrifice is easily countered during downtime when natural life regen settles in before the next cast of VS, so self-healing there is not an issue.

I'm not sold on this... Seems to me that whenever I sacrifice, it resets my regen counter. So I might have 3 pips of health regen but when I cast VS or BoTM (or OoB), that regen drops to 0. I'm no certain that the minimal regen that can pop up between casts is enough to "counter" the sacrifice gains.

I guess I've gotten so used to monks in tombs being so bored that they look for any heal and I never get a chance to see what would happen if I didn't have that "crutch".

Bel Ebih · Mar 24, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

I'm not sold on this... Seems to me that whenever I sacrifice, it resets my regen counter. So I might have 3 pips of health regen but when I cast VS or BoTM (or OoB), that regen drops to 0. I'm no certain that the minimal regen that can pop up between casts is enough to "counter" the sacrifice gains.

I guess I've gotten so used to monks in tombs being so bored that they look for any heal and I never get a chance to see what would happen if I didn't have that "crutch".

Yeh, whenever you sacrifice, or even attack for that matter, the natural regen stops. The thing is that when doing Renewal/VS during downtime, you only have to do VS every 21 secs to keep it constant with no need for BotM. You cast VS, and natural regen takes you back to max by the time you cast VS again. This is of course assuming a max of 455hp. With more life, more sac, the less the natural regen, or if you use 2 superiors, there's less sac and you regen to max even faster.

On the other hand, when you're doing VS every 30 secs, you have to follow it up with BotM to compensate for the 9 secs of cummulative degen between each. This is where HA comes in handy to be able to self heal and max out your minion health at the same time, either by going VS>BotM>HA or VS>HA, depending on your build.

Actually, maybe that's one reason why some people dislike N/E, since a lot of MM's have this uncontrolable impulse to spam BotM a lot more than is necessary. Like I said before, with N/E, the only sacrifice comes from VS unless you're minions are being attacked or are on their last legs, in which case BotM comes in. If you know how to time it right, it's no stress on your Monk, yourself, or your minions. Still, a lot of Monks have an uncontrolable impulse as well, to run back and heal after every little sac, even if you tell them it's really not necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

Can I suggest we think about what we want a MM to do in Various Areas and in various builds then compare builds with purposes.

Good suggestion. While I do not agree on saying one is better than another overall, I do agree some are best suited for particular purposes. For example:

Tombs. The purpose here, imo, is to bodyblock as much as possible while doing as much damage as possible. The bodyblock musn't be compromised though since the main damage with B/P groups comes with Barrage obviously. That's why I mostly prefrer Horror/Minions over Horror/Fiends here. I also take Nova, but not ToD since enemies hit so hard that they will trigger the bombs themselves. Basically summon in large numbers, position to bodyblock, Nova Minions and Pets while puller lures, and unleash. When Grasps hit Minions a couple of times, the chain reactions kill very fast, while nothing gets through since there's always so much blocking. This isn't straight MM, but it's not an actual bomber build either. Also there's very little downtime, so VS every 30s and an occasional Heal Area is more than enough. The build looks like this:

Death Nova
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Offering of Blood {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Heal Area
Blood Ritual (to trade energy with Orders if necessary, and help out Monk)
Rebirth

*I've also run this as N/Me with Mantra of Resolve to avoid interrupts insted of Heal Area. Worked just as well, although it's risky to get 'interrupt spiked' while under Resolve cause since the spell doesn't stop, you can easily get killed by a bunch of Power Spikes and Cry of Frustrations dropping on you non-stop. Can also be run easily with pure Necro with ToD insted of Heal Area to use as an emergency button, or if you're simply too lazy to change secondary.

Now, on the other hand, for something like SF farming, particularly Orozar, I prefer straight MM with N/E. Like I've said before, self-healing with a N/E isn't an issue during downtime, but since you're simply not getting targeted here, it's not an issue ever. So being able to summon at any time with no energy problems is a big plus here, especially since it's likely you're running with an SS that's making everything drop simulatniously. It's also a big plus to be able to keep up with the group during loooong downtimes by only doing Renew/VS insted of Heal Area every few steps. Only self-heal you need is ToD as an emergency button in case the tank 'drops the ball'. The build looks like this:

Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Glyph of Renewal {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master
Taste of Death
Rez Sig

Anyway, this is just what works for me, and what I find most fun. I've seen other people run different builds that are just as effective even if they aren't really my style. One of the most interesting I saw was a MM/degen build similar to the Virulence one I posted previously only with dropping the occasional Well of Suffering. Not something I would do, but the guy pulled it off great and killed.

bobrath · Mar 26, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Actually for Oro, I prefer N/R because you can bring along winnowing to make your summons hit harder. Tombs its not needed cause a ranger will have a far better level with it.

Since in Oro you're not going for the body blocking, to me its more important to up your damage then keep the head count up.

Amor Corazon · Mar 26, 2006, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Yes there are the 4 main builds for a MM all of which is good depending on your style of play. But as we've seent this weekend in the Fpe the builds all of which using some of the faction skills will be able to be tweaked and refined, there is also that flesh golem {elite} which say a N/E may not be able to use if it takes the other elite and im not stating that you need that elite jsut chucking out an idea.